“Diversity, true diversity, not performative diversity, is the true key to great commercial success.” - An interview with Elle McNicoll, part two
Elle sits, side-on, in the window-seat of a large window with sunshine streaming in, and she’s signing a copy of her second novel, ‘Show Us Who You Are’. She wears black, shiny leggings, and a puff-sleeved, pink top with a shiny floral print. She has waist-length blonde hair and wears clear-framed glasses. She is wearing a face mask. There is a painted, yellow bird on the glass window.
Julie: Do you think there is an honest drive towards making things more accessible, making publishing more inclusive, more diverse, and is everything that we're seeing people championing coming from a real place? Do you think actions are following words?
Elle: I think it depends on the source. I couldn't speak of the industry as one big complete faction. I think it's divided. Booksellers are doing a lot. I think they really do want their bookshops to welcome everybody, and their events to be welcoming of everybody. And like you said, Edinburgh Book Festival are incredible and I've been moved and humbled by how they worked for access at that festival, and how it made it accessible for the readers and for the audience that came. Because you have to think about your audience as well, it's not just your staff, it's not just your colleagues, it's your audience, it's your customer. And so they were fantastic.
“What these particular factions of the industry do not understand is that diversity, true diversity, not performative diversity, is the true key to great commercial success. In our current society I think the books that are doing brilliantly are the ones that are diverse, and not in a tokenistic way.”
I look at people like my publishers, Knights of, who I truly believe are doing incredible things for the industry and setting an example and setting a tone. But I think we're in a capitalist society and commercial success trumps everything. What these particular factions of the industry do not understand is that diversity, true diversity, not performative diversity, is the true key to great commercial success. In our current society I think the books that are doing brilliantly are the ones that are diverse, and not in a tokenistic way – not written by majority authors who are trying to imagine themselves in a minority position.
I think publishers haven't quite realised that diversity is something you do every day, in every room, not just your author list, you do it in your sales team, your PR, your marketing, in your editorial, and also your hire-ups. It's not enough to just have an intern come in for six months and say well, they were in a minority. No, you didn't promote them and you didn't mentor them, so it was incredibly performative, and the most talented and interesting people in the industry I find at the moment are people who would be considered diverse. I think some publishers are sleeping on that, and they haven't woken up to that yet.
“I look at festival line-ups, and they could be a carbon-copy of the last two festivals I've seen. No disabled people, very white, very same-old, and I as a reader, and an author, I'm frustrated. I don't want to go into this festival because I want to see new voices.”
I look at festival line-ups, and they could be a carbon-copy of the last two festivals I've seen. No disabled people, very white, very same-old, and I as a reader, and an author, I'm frustrated. I don't want to go into this festival because I want to see new voices. There's a push and pull in the industry right now, where there's a tonne of young people who are excited to change the industry and mould it and make it great and make it inclusive, and I think there's an old guard who are hanging on, who are afraid of that change.
Julie: Well said. You're a lockdown author, and there’s a whole group of you who've all had this tough and harrowing experience around debuting, and most of your events and interactions have been online. Have you faced barriers to attending or speaking at events?
Elle: As an author it’s hard, I don't do so well on a virtual platform, when there's multiple people. And this is true for school visits as well. The audio processing is a lot harder when there's multiple people and they're talking at once and the sound is coming in and out, it's very difficult for me to stay focused. It's also difficult for me to read people's tone and read people's expressions through virtual. So, in that sense a lot of virtual events that are quite big and have lots of people involved, or a panel, or a conference, I'm having to do a lot more work than I would do in person to keep on board.
“A lot of people that come to my events and virtual events in general, are people who would normally be shut out. Now they get to come and see the public launch.”
So that's a disadvantage for me that I don't enjoy virtual events in comparison to in-person events. But I do accept the enormous positive, which is that a lot of people that come to my events and virtual events in general, are people who would normally be shut out. Now they get to come and see the public launch that they would not otherwise be invited to, or otherwise not be able to come down to London for. Which is why I love the hybrid format so much. It felt so wonderful to do the Edinburgh Book Festival event, knowing there were two cameras pointing at you and knowing that on the other end of that camera were people very comfortable in their own homes, watching the events safely, and getting great shots, and really feeling like they were involved.
“I think that the hybrid form has to be the standard going forward.”
I think that the hybrid form has to be the standard going forward. As an audience member, you can watch a book launch, for example, and you can have your camera off. It's brought so many people into the literary sphere that have been excluded. So it is wonderful in that sense as an author, who's neurodivergent, although I find it difficult, I know that at least my readers are feeling included, and they are getting access. So, for me, the hybrid form is perfect. I hope to see more of that going forward.
Julie: Yes! I love being able to switch my camera off, or catch-up on a recorded event if I’ve had a couple of off days.
Elle: I think a lot of able bodied people in publishing, which is most people in publishing, don't understand that when you're disabled, your day can be a little bit unpredictable. With virtual events I can say, ‘join us when you can pay what you can. It's great quality, you're still involved. You can also have the buzz of doing it live if you're able, but you don't have to leave your home.’ People underestimate how much work it takes to be disabled and how much preparation there is and how much fragility around your schedule, so online and virtual events really can soften that a little.
Julie: As a neurodivergent speaker, I often ask for questions in advance, because it takes me a while to prepare my responses, and I will ask the chairperson to bear in mind that I might go off on a tangent or lose the thread of the question and to bring me back on to it, do you ever need to do that?
Elle: I sometimes ask people to speak a little more slowly because I can't hear them or the tone, and yes I do ask for questions in advance. As much communication and information as possible is helpful. Some people do take me very literally, which is fantastic and I'll get people who ask me to film a video and they tell me ‘to film a video, you go into your camera app on your phone and you do this’ and I'm like okay, I don't need that much information, but I still really appreciate it. I know I'm doing it right. But some people can be very vague and blasé, and that’s a barrier.
Julie: Any other barriers you’ve encountered with organisers?
“I still get a lot of organisers that want to study me and poke me until inspirational things come out, and I'm not so interested in being inspirational, I'm interested in talking about the work.”
Elle: I still get a lot of organisers that want to study me and poke me until inspirational things come out, and I'm not so interested in being inspirational, I'm interested in talking about the work. Maybe some organisers need to fully examine why it is they want disabled people involved. Is it because disabled people are human beings and they are artists just like everyone else in the industry, and are doing incredible work that's exciting, that appeals to you and speaks to you, or is it because you want to hold them up and say, look who we got – we got the magical talking autistic author who writes autistic books, and we're gonna poke her until she tells us why. I've had organisers who’ve had no interest in me as an author, just as a sort of specimen, which horrible. It's really hard to get them to see why it's not fun, because they think they're being very nice, and they're very good people. These are nice people. These are not horrible people. These are lovely, hardworking, gracious people. They just don't realise that they're falling into this old trap of inspiration porn.
Julie: There can be an element of warped saviourism going on.
Elle: Yes, and kids never do it. The kids never do that, they always want to talk about the work, they want to see the Blue Peter badge, they want to ask questions about what Addie’s doing now, what Keedie’s doing now. They are so interested in the work. So that's why I get sad when I'm dealing with adults in the industry who deny those readers that. The kids don't really want to hear me answer this question again for the 15th time. Why worry about neurodiversity? They don't.
Julie: Was querying hard?
Elle: My publishers found me my agent and I would never have queried because the querying process is just so hard for me. This industry is so much about luck and timing, and hard work has to be kind of second to that.
“Diversity panels are always saying ‘we need more diversity in publishing’ and talk about editorial, but we also need it to be agents, because they're the gatekeepers at the front of the door.”
Diversity panels are always saying ‘we need more diversity in publishing’ and talk about editorial, but we also need it to be agents, because they're the gatekeepers at the front of the door.
Julie: To bring it round to the Inklusion Guide, we’re going to be speaking to disabled creatives and writers of all disabilities, and collaborating with a couple of university researchers, to inform the content. We hope it can help people self-advocate – do you think this guide would have helped you?
Elle: Yes, I think it would. I think the self-advocacy aspect of the guide is an incredibly important detail that can't be omitted, because I think a lot of people, especially people who are neurodivergent and perhaps late-diagnosed or self-diagnosed, I think they are still hesitant about advocacy.
“I think this will signify which publishers and which industry professionals are ready to do the work, depending on their engagement with the guide.”
I think disabled people in general are too wearied to ask for help because they’re so used to being rejected. So to have a guide that would comprehensively layout ways in which you can self-advocate, would be an incredible resource, an incredible tool for a young neurodivergent person starting out in the industry, or somebody who's maybe feeling a little bit in a rut within the industry. And I think this will signify which publishers and which industry professionals are ready to do the work, depending on their engagement with the guide.
“As a resource it serves as a reminder that access needs are not flaws, and that we are a benefit to this industry, and we deserve to contribute. It's the law; we deserve to have an industry that is accessible to us, particularly when they benefit from us in terms of capital, when our art makes the money.”
It would have helped me as a young neurodivergent in the industry, as a tool, as a sign of community. As a resource it serves as a reminder that access needs are not flaws, and that we are a benefit to this industry, and we deserve to contribute. It's the law; we deserve to have an industry that is accessible to us, particularly when they benefit from us in terms of capital, when our art makes the money. We therefore deserve equal and equitable rights and resources, and this is a resource that I would have greatly appreciated.
Julie: Thank you! We really hope it helps people at all stages, in all areas of publishing, and we hope it eliminates excuses. To wrap up, if you could tell organisations and publishers in a nutshell what changes you want to see in the industry, what would you say?
Elle: I want to see disabled authors, publishing employees, and readers, particularly readers and audience members, treated with the respect and dignity, and accommodations they deserve. We are not just your colleagues, we are your customer. We are your buyers. We are a huge percentage of this bubble that we call the book industry, and we are as much a part of making it work as anybody else. Therefore, we deserve this to be a two way transaction. We deserve that respect. If you neglect your disabled customer, if you mistreat your disabled employee, or you marginalise your disabled creators, you will be worse off. We are diverse. We are excellent, and we're not going anywhere.